Takedowns in MMA

Ben Askren on July 5, 2010, 8:55pm | More Posts

I have been lacking in my blog writing lately, but I think I finally have a topic that I am passionate enough about to write on. I hate the MMA scoring system as do a lot of people and how it needs to be overhauled is a topic all in itself. I want to speak specifically about how takedowns are scored, now as a wrestler I should be naturally inclined to think takedowns should be scored as big points. However, nothing pains me more than a wrestler who gets a takedown then does absolutely nothing with it and then lets the guy get back up. I could name a lot of names, but this blog isnt about pointing fingers it is about identifying the problem within the scoring. If a submission attempt doesnt score then neither should a takedown in which no damage is done. Fighting is about one thing inflicting damage and a takedown followed by sitting in the guard does nothing and should be scored as such. Please someone change this part of the mma scoring system.

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Updated on July 5, 2010, 9:14pm

30 comments

James 2 weeks ago

You're an idiot. Plain & simple. There's no need for Dana to reply to askren's comment as there is nothing more to be said on the testing situation at this point as Dana already laid it out before, do research moron. He has fighters all over the world & the expense & logistics of the whole thing at this point would be a nightmare. The point about the Helwani situation was to point out Ben is a punk wannabe bully. I do, however, if the UFC brought him in it would be an embarassment. The WW division doesn't need another lame fighter like Ben. Koscheck, Hendricks, Fitch, Diaz, Condit, Rory Macdonald, this list goes on of guy who wouldn't get laid n prayed by this guy. You're obviously not a real mma fan if you love this guy so much, you're a wrestling fan. Go watch any of these guys on my list fight & you will see real well rounded fighters. This turd wouldn't even make his way to a title shot if he actually made it to the UFC. Btw many people have stated askren's last fight was boring, he only challenged Helwani because he's the smallest guy that called the Lima fight what it was. Now go ahead & make another pointless comment about this guy you obviously want to wrestle with yourself...naked.

shawnoh 2 weeks ago

Hey James, so you wanted my opinion on the "Ariel Helwani situation"? I read the comments and to sum it all up...WHO CARES! I mean, come on, Helwani writes a weak article about Ben taking it to Lima as "boring" and Ben squawks back. Big deal. Raw emotion is exactly what this blood sport brings out. Let's talk about Dana White's mid-guided retort to Ben's challenge that the UFC could indeed do drug testing. Dana doesn't reply at all to Ben's honest comment but rather he flings a grade school insult back at Ben (Dana's attempt at humor fell flat...about as flat as Ben lays his opponents on their backs on the mat). I figured the UFC as being a brand that wants to put the BEST fighters in the cage, not just the ones with steroid induced bodies who dance pretty around the ring while boxing. His Funkness is a shaggy headed sleeper who would embarrass the UFC if they ever step up to the plate. Ben's has proven his funky style is a winning strategy, so no more griping until someone, somewhere has the endurance to stop him.

James 2 weeks ago

The editing on this blog is horrible, what is this for 12 year olds?! Anyway let me put it this way. Ben doesn't want to do straight porn when he's on top of another guy. Fa&&0t

James 2 weeks ago

Dude, your argument never changes, it's the same thing over & over again. The UFC doesn't need to step up, Ben does! Ofcourse fighters are going to train with him, they want to work on their wrestling! Dude has one skill set that is all. Dana ain't scared ass-kren, believe that. Get off his nuts dude. Seriously. And if you're going to replay again, which I'm sure you will, come up with a different defense for your boy instead of regurgitating the same garbage. If Ben doesn't change his game up he'll remain a nobody. That's one of the main points here. He talks a big game about training this & that, but hasn't showed us anything in the cage. Nobody cares about Ben askren, & if he doesn't adapt no one ever will. Bottom line. Also, you say he's not a bully!? Then please give us your thoughts on the Ariel Helwani situation. (I'd just love to hear your ignorant opinion) and this isn't the wwe, I don't need someone to "talk smack" to get me excited for a fight, just 2 fighters who are willing to fight, not one fighter and one guy aspiring to be in porn.

James 2 weeks ago

shawnoh 3 weeks ago

Sure, Ben talks up his fights but he backs up his words. Don't you want some smack talk build up to fights? That is part of this blood sport. I will say Ben is honest both in his smack as well as he's man enough to admit disappointment when appropriate. Watch his Hieron post fight where he admits he didn't fight his best (yet he still won). Ben isn't a bully, he's a punisher. He's proven that he can take solid punches and withstand submission holds. Then he goes about the business of grinding his opponent into the mat flat on their backs with incessant ground and pound. So he's not knocking guys out, rather his style is to simply control, dominate and WIN...which he does quite nicely with his superior grappling skills. I mean, come on, some of the UFC fighters come to Ben for training! Maybe Dana White is worried the Funk would make some of his UFC fighters look silly, I mean, getting tossed to the mat and made to stay there while Ben works them over with his funkness. Nobody in Bellator has been able to figure him out so I would like to see him move up the food chain wherever that might take him. Axmurderer, you have a list of guys who would beat Askren...well, time for the UFC to step up to the plate and we'll see. Boring?! Let's see someone beat his funky grappling skill set! And in the meantime Ben is sharpening his kicks and submission holds and continues to grow as a champion...

Axmurderer 3 weeks ago

James, anonymous, you guys are absolutely right! I thought it was so funny how askren challenged Helwani to fight, because of his words, but not Dana! He'll pick a fight with the little guy. I, however, do hope he makes it into the UFC. I want to see him get owned by GSP! He wouldn't be able to take George down & hump him for 5 rounds & it would probably turn into a standup fight = askren, the first death in the octogon! Even though UFC fanboys would be asking who the hell is this curly haired dude getting beat up & why would anyone think he could hand with GSP. I'd also like to see a catch weight bout or something with sonnen, I don't normally like Chael but it'd be funny to see him run through askren too. After that (which obviously fights we'll probably never see) he can go back to being king of the nobody's! Thanks for the boring fights Ben "one trick pony" askren.

James 3 weeks ago

Shawnow, after reading your last post the only reaction I have is the same Peter Griffin has when Buzz Killington appears in one of his flashbacks. You like Ben, we all get it. More people than not don't like him, & it's not "so what" when Dana White doesn't like the way you fight, especially if you talk $h!t like Ben & supposedly want to fight the best, ben's a dumba$$, arrogant, boring fool. I mean come on this loser picked a fight with Ariel Helwani for calling his fight what it was. Ben likes to start a lot of crap, he's the kind of loser who will start something with someone just for having an opinion different from his own. He's also the kind of dude that goes out to a bar and never comes home because he acts the he does and got his a$$ killed, so yeah fu(k this guy you want to dangle from his satchel go right ahead I'm done with this dude. He's a loser, & a wanna be bully, a low life piece of trash,

shawnoh 4 weeks ago

Well, if Dana White is bored with Ben's funky style then so be it. With the money you're saying is floating around the UFC compared to Bellator then I assume that UFC is a full time job whereas Bellator is more a part time gig. So Ben (and his wrestling talented brother) both have wrestling training jobs. Under that lense, ruling the Bellator welterweight division 3 years in a row looks pretty sweet to me. I thoroughly enjoy his fights because it's fun seeing if his opponent (on his back) will try to kick his way off the floor, see if he can survive Ben's incessant pounding and then the flip flops as both of them try alternating submission holds. Ben is wise to avoid the pure boxing side as that is his weakness. He's honing his kicking skills but again I think he's smart to use that while biding his time in taking the guy to the mat. So, to me, I hope Ben is putting his training into submission holds so that he get guys to tap out. His strength is on the mat and so submissions would be his next logical skill to build. I'd luv to see him fight more often but sounds like the Bellator format isn't going to offer us that opportunity.

James 4 weeks ago

Well... Here's Dana White's thought on Ben. "When ambien can't sleep it takes Ben askren. The most boring fighter in mma history. I would rather watch flies f***." so there you have it, doesn't look like your boy will be in the UFC anytime soon. The other dude isn't living in a fantasy world when he's talking about the UFC btw, they have the top guys, look up the rankings, it's proven. Plus Herion got ktfo by GSP, just saying. On a side note I wonder if Askren ever looks at this blog of his anymore, maybe he hasn't defended himself on his own blog because he knows what the majority of people on here are saying the truth. Ben makes me want to watch Jon fitch fight, well not really but you get the point...actually Fitch vs Hendricks was pretty entertaining!

shawnoh 4 weeks ago

Hey Anonymous Coward, you've got me splitting my gut laughing out loud! Luv the insults! Ben is the master-of-the-mat but you're master-of-the-put-down. First off let me say the Funk continues kicking ass where it counts...in the cage. Second tier competion or not he is indeed "mauling" his opponents. You ask Lima how his head felt after being pounded for 25 minutes (I concede Lima isn't UFC champion talent but the guy CAN fight). BTW, who wants to watch a YouTube of a bear killing someone when you can watch the Funk maul a fighter into exhaustion. Ben is honing his skills to expand his arsenal. His kicks are improving and I hope will become a bigger weapon for him in the future. Don't know if his stand up boxing skills will ever become a signature but that's alright as his wrestling skills are extraordinary. Based on your love affair with UFC I would like to see how Askren's mat skills would compare to some of the UFC 170 pounders. At this point I'm not talking about the UFC champ making $10 million per year, but the general UFC welterweight. If your fantasy view of UFC is correct then I imagine the current incarnation of the Funk would have a hard time making his way thru the stand-up part of the fight (at least against their ten million dollar man) which if that prevented him from moving the guy to the mat then Ben's main weapon would be held at bay. But I sure would like to see him have an opportunity to fight in the UFC cause he's already proven himself against Bellators best. When Ben gets his guy to the mat then his funk is a game changer. Bellator is what it is. So maybe it's the farm system for UFC as you do seem to have some handle on the numbers, but Bellator has survived to-date in a sport that has left several brands as road kill. So they are doing something right. This is a meek comeback (on my part) but Bellator does show on cable channel MTV2 which I assume is a second tier channel but I have it in my Comcast lineup. And for me, the casual MMA fan who doesn't want to lay out 50 or 100 bucks for PPV, it rocks to be able to watch Ben lay down the Funk. Can't wait to see his next mauling! Serious question, do you have any idea if Bellator has a path to let the champs of their weight classes fight more than once a year? I know their shtick is the tournament layout with current year champ fighting last years champ but how do we get to see more of the Funk? And do you ever see Ben moving into the UFC?

Anonymous Coward 1 month ago

One more thing. You are letting your emotions ran way ahead of yourself. You stated:

"He has the heart of a lion and the approach of a grizzly bear who literally mauls his opponents"
No offense to Ben, but to compare him to a Grizzly bear that is killing people is just ...well, absurd. Have you seen a wild bear maul something? Watch on YouTube. Then watch Ben. That's not a good comparison, a bear killing something and what Ben does. Come on. How about a dog dry humping someone? Ok, that might be a bit harsh to Ben, but the reality is, if you want to understand what 'MAULING' someone is in MMA, go watch any of Wanderlei Silva's old videos in Pride. Then you'll have a bit better of a frame of reference when using your 'mauling' term.
"I don't care who you fight, if you can year after year dominate at the champion level then you've got to respect that. These guys at Bellator are, okay, not the cream at the top of the UFC but they are skilled fighters...and none of them have been able to figure out the Funk"
Again, do you understand that Bellator is not 'Champion' level. It's the equivalent to minor league baseball. Do you routinely scan the papers for AA baseball home run champs, and then compare them to Albert Pujols? No. So why make a fool out of yourself and do it here? It makes you look like your carrying his nuts in your mouth. Just a minor league top talent baseball player, Ben is a guy with potential. And that's great that "no one" has figured him out yet, but it's means nothing. That phrase carries more weight when the "no one" INCLUDES people in the top 40.

Anonymous Coward 1 month ago

Overblown? The UFC is probably a $300 to $350 million company (revenue). That's PPV proceeds, gate, TV ldeals and Merchandise/Misc. Bellator? They had no ppv that i am aware of. They ran 25 events that had very little gate. TV deal? I highly doubt even the new deal with Spike will pay more than a few million. So perhaps i was a bit over in saying 500x larger...perhaps it should have been like 100x larger. Is that more accurate? I don't think it changes my point.

And comparing one fighter's paycheck, ...like Ben's, to others in the UFC is a bit deceiving. Who do you compare it too? GSP, the UFC's 170lb champ? GSP makes around $400,000 a fight, but that is his base. His ppv bonuses, are estimated to be in the millions. So he's probably around $3 to $4 million a fight. Throw in his endorsements, which are rumored to be into the millions.....he could be making $10 to $15 million a year. How does that now stack up to Ben's $200,000 in 2011 (Ben fought twice and his endorsement's are small for MMA). Not even close. GSP is doing commercials for Gatorade. Ben is only known in wrestling circles.
As far as your comment that Ben is a "World Class Athlete".....uhhhh....so what? What does that have to do with the reality that Bellator is a ridiculously tiny show right now, with an athlete base that has no depth whatsoever. Yes, some decent champs who 'might' have potential, (Akren, Lombard, etc..)...but as of now, very little other talent to challenge them. And that's the reality, Ben is a world class athlete in WRESTLING. But we are talking MMA. What is he in MMA is just for world class level 'wrestler', who MIGHT have potential to do well in MMA. Having potential doesn't make you a champ. And as we speak today, in 2012, he has not proven himself to be anything more than that. Someone with potential. As all he's proven is he can get decisions (and split decisions) against mid-tier talent. That's it. There is no other way to view it.

shawnoh 1 month ago

Well, I appreciate your knowledge of the sport but, come on, when you say "Bellator is probably 1/500th the size of the UFC in terms of revenues and the talent disparity is probably the same" isn't that a tad overblown? Last I heard Ben was making $100,000 per Bellator championship win...at least that seemed to be the pot last year so maybe that's grown? Anyway, not getting rich off that but still at least Bellator is making the fights worthwhile with that kind of dough. And winning three years in a row puts him at $300k minimum, not chump change. All that aside, Ben is a world class athlete...NCAA wrestling champ, participated in Olympics and won the Bellator welterweight div 3 fricking years in a row. He has the heart of a lion and the approach of a grizzly bear who literally mauls his opponents. I don't care who you fight, if you can year after year dominate at the champion level then you've got to respect that. These guys at Bellator are, okay, not the cream at the top of the UFC but they are skilled fighters...and none of them have been able to figure out the Funk. My question is how do we get to see Ben fight more often?? Bellator has it's place in a very exciting sport, I just wish they'd figure out how to expand the quantity of fights so that we can see some more Funk and he'll show the haters what a true champion he is. I feel he needs to actually ratchet up the smack talk so that he pulls talent out of the woodwork to challenge him. He's proven himself so far as a beast...UFC or Bellator level talent regardless, the Funk is dominating on the mat! Bring on the challengers.

Another anonymous hater 1 month ago

Shawnoh said, " I'm glad to hear your thoughts about Bellator being #2 as that sounds impressive to me but I just don't know much about the welterweight talent in the other leagues."

The #2 figure for Bellator, is a bit misleading. Bellator is no. 2 only by default. Other organizations such as Strikeforce, Dream, WEC, Elite XC, etc..they have either been bought out or went bankrupt. Bellator moved up by default, as there was no one else. Bellator is probably 1/500th the size of the UFC in terms of revenues and the talent disparity is probably the same.
Take Ben's two most recent wins. Set aside the merits of 'how' he won (whether it was boring or exciting). Just look objectively at those two people he beat, the 'best of rest' in Bellator: Douglas Lima and Jay Hieron. Both of these guys are mid-tier talent. There are probably around 25 to 30 guys in the UFC who could easily beat them. In fact, Hieron (who Ben just barely beat) had a shot in the UFC and went 0-2. No disrespect to Hieron or Lima, they are both very talented, game athletes, but their skill isn't really on par with the mid-tier UFC guys. At best, they would be entry level guys if they got a shot in the UFC, one and done type of athletes.
So Ben being the 'champ' in Bellator isn't really saying much. A good analogy is as follows. Would you put the home run champion from MLB's single A farm-team West Frankfort Cardinals, on the same level with Albert Pujols? Hell no you wouldn't. People would laugh at you. Well, that's kind of where Ben sits right now. If he wants to talk smack, he needs to get his butt out of the 'Single A' farm leagues of Bellator, and go prove himself.
It's more like the UFC is number #1 in size, talent, reach and scope, and the rest of world is

shawnoh 1 month ago

I'm not a student of the sport, just a spectator who tuned into late night TV several years ago and stumbled upon an MMA fight and I've been hooked ever since. I picked up on Askren as a Mizzou boy and it was great fun watching his early success evolve into dominance in the Bellator welterweight class. I'm glad to hear your thoughts about Bellator being #2 as that sounds impressive to me but I just don't know much about the welterweight talent in the other leagues. In last years title bout Hieron just about stole the fight in the final minute or two of round 5 by kickinig Ben onto his arse...but Ben was so far ahead in the cards that he held on for the victory. I think that mighty kick of Hieron's got Ben's attention and perhaps reinforced sticking with his wrestling strengths. Lima sure had the body of a chisled champ and a wicked right hand but I see he's lost 4 or 5 fights so I can't judge his quality level...but he did have to survive beating 3 to 5 guys to get a shot at the Funk. You say Ben talks smack but really that's part of this blood sport and I see it as confidence, a confidence that he's earned thru not only surviving but many times dominating in full 5 round endurance fights. Those who dis-like Ben will call his fights boring but his fans see those same fights as thrilling with Ben's smothering skills as being something fun to experience. A bad thing about Bellator is that once you make it to the world champ level then you only seem to get the chance to fight once a year. I look forward to seeing the Funk have more frequent fights (televised), whether that be in Bellator or elsewhere.

James 1 month ago

I would say bellator has moved up to the #2 promotion, however, their 170 lbs & up divisions are lacking. Askren is fighting b level fighters at best, disagree? This is guy who is going around and talking smack about top level guys, guys who have beaten other top level guys multiple times, something Ben hasn't ever done. People don't like him not just because he's y, but undeservedly so. It's almost as if he's trying to Chael Sonnen his way into something, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. I mean look at John Fitch, he was considered the number 2 guy for a long time yet Dana wouldn't give him a shot at the title. Why? Because he's boring, & doesn't finish opponents. If Ben were as good as he thinks he is, he would be taking chances against these mostly b-level fighters while he can, and show that he's more than just a one trick pony. I would understand (not necessarily agree) with his game plan if he were fighting top ten guys, but this just isn't the case. And honestly if this is the way he wants to try to get in the UFC, I hope he never makes it there. He can be the b-level king for all I, and many others care.

shawnoh 1 month ago

James, I understand your desire of wanting to see a multiple attack fight as I agree those are indeed fun to watch. Sure, the Funk is somewhat one dimensional today, however, he is so dominant with his wrestling skills that I don't blame him for going 100% to his strength. And until someone challenges him to move beyond the wrestling and submission side I doubt Ben will change his strategy. Why should he? As a fan of the Funk I luv watching his fights, especially when he trades submission holds with his opponent. And regarding declaring him "the best mixed martial artist", he hasn't fought enough yet to see how far he can go with his wrestling skills but I will say that he has proven 3 years in a row that he is the best at 170 lbs in the Bellator family. I don't know how Bellator rates but I'd like to see how you rank the various MMA leagues in order of prestige (sincere question). I assume Bellator isn't the bellweather league but they put on some good fights and my hope is that the Funk will continue to hone his ju jitsu skills so that if he finally meets a challenger who competes against his wrestling skill set that he'll have other weapons in place. Thanks for sharing and long live The Funk!

James 1 month ago

It absolutely is mixed martial arts. Not boxing, & thank god, NOT WRESTLING! I'm not asking for just a stand up fight, but it's mma so mix it up! I love ju jitsu, & hell even wrestling when a fighter doesn't rely solely on their wrestling to secure a win. Askren is one dimensional, this is what's being said. You can't be the best mixed martial artist if you can only execute with one aspect of your game. Take Rampage for example, maybe he'd win or ko someone if he did something with his wrestling lately.

shawnoh 1 month ago

What am I missing here?!? Thought the aim is to win the match? Any fighter who wants nothing but "stand up" striking should turn to boxing. MMA offers multiple skill sets and the idea is to win with any of those skills that work. For the Funk, he dominates with wrestling and endurance. You ask Lima if Ben's ground n pound did any damage...he'd probably say "no knock out punch but I've never been so exhausted in my life after eating mat for 5 of the longest rounds of my life"! Three time Bellator welterweight world champ...pretty much says it all. Keep up the Funk!

James 1 month ago

Except Ben didn't ground & pound or submit Lima, he threw pitter patter shots that make the Diaz brothers look like they're throwing heat with EVERY punch they put out there. We all know they like to get a volume in, just a comparison. Askren can sit up top at bellator and pretend to be the king of the playground, but we all know the truth. Dude doesn't do damage let alone hurt anyone. Like Barnett said on inside mma "real men fight standing up". Daniel Cormier is a high level wrestler yet he's not afraid to stand and knock mother fu$(ers out. It's bellator fighting championships, go in there and fight for god's sake, it's not a wrestling match. Better yet go got the wwe where you belong Ben, I'm sure those rednecks will love seeing you ride a guy for 25 mins, plus you'll get to use a chair, maybe you'll mess up your swing and actually hurt someone lol. Just go away from mma, you're ruining the sport.

Axmurderer 1 month ago

Beat down?!? What a joke. I normally enjoy bellator shows, but not an askren fight. He's so damn arrogant and not even rightfully so! We get it you can wrestle, let's you ko someone. Please, please find your way I to the UFC so you can be exposed for what you really are. My guess, you'd try to cut to 155, & put on some boring fights there too. You train with duke, show it off don't be scared, all your talking about UFC fighters ain't nothing either, Dana white doesn't even know your name. Best ww my ass. Start fighting, don't be scared!

shawnoh 1 month ago

I know this is a very old post but I just watched bellator 64. I totally agree with what you said because if anything your fight tonight should've been a draw. You did very little damage & humped your way to another "victory". Why don't you quit talking about legit fighters (because you're a hater and if you ever get into the UFC you know it won't last long) and work on your own game. And I am by no means a Garcia fan, but I'll him fight over one of your "fights" any day. The next time you have a fight I will watch boxing, because to call you a fighter is joke dude you're a wrestler. One more thing, GSP would own you dude, have fun in the minor leagues.

Ben Askren just laid down another beat down...this time by dominating Lima! Wrestling is as important in MMA as boxing and I'm tired of the strikers whining about being taken to the mat and ground n pounded into submission...that is part of the sport! In order for Ben to take a man to the mat he has to finesse his way thru his opponents boxing and striking skills. And then he wears his guy down thru 5 rentless rounds of sheer dominance. THAT rocks! Ben is now the 3 time Bellator welterweight world champ...Ben, YOU rock!!!

Anonymous Coward 1 month ago

I know this is a very old post but I just watched bellator 64. I totally agree with what you said because if anything your fight tonight should've been a draw. You did very little damage & humped your way to another "victory". Why don't you quit talking about legit fighters (because you're a hater and if you ever get into the UFC you know it won't last long) and work on your own game. And I am by no means a Garcia fan, but I'll him fight over one of your "fights" any day. The next time you have a fight I will watch boxing, because to call you a fighter is joke dude you're a wrestler. One more thing, GSP would own you dude, have fun in the minor leagues.

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Matt Bequette 2 years ago

I could not agree more...maybe after a few minutes of boring lay and pray with no action, the guy on bottom should get his choice...top position or stand up

and it's not just mma that needs the rules changed...bjj world champs are being decided based on ability to score a few points and gi out and hang on until time...or even worse a win by advantage...that's not what bjj is about

fighting conservative for decisions or point wins is not exciting and is not what the fans want to see...whether mma or bjj

Jason 2 years ago

Agree with you completely. Lots of "lay-n-pray" fighters out there who have made a name off of getting a fight to the ground and not doing much else down there. I think most fans of the sport would agree with you here too, especially the casual ones who can't even bear to watch a match go to the ground as they find it "boring". Beside the point though...

I guess I see a takedown as little more than a transition to the ground. Isn't it similar to taking an opponent's back or passing one's guard? And we know you don't automatically get points for those things. Mind you, there are slams in MMA that would also be scored as "takedowns", but that's going to deal some damage by itself most times.

All in all, it does need to be changed if it continues to be abused in this fashion. Of course, I'd just suggest more fighters get ready to throw knees to the head if they don't like being taken down. :)